Thank you both for a very inspiring and educational interview. Pearls of wisdom;
“I am not my diagnosis”
“I had been seeing a psychiatrist who was also my therapist. So he was playing both roles, ill-advised, everyone listening, ill-advised, because you don't have anyone to talk to about your psychiatrist and no one to talk to about your therapist”
Such an amazing conversation. Sarah’s thoughts on the issues with the DSM and the way these categories, while helpful for some, can also be unhelpful or even harmful for others — is such an important and powerful point! And being as someone who has his own problems with labels and categories, that stuff really resonated with me.
Thank you both for an illuminating conversation. :)
Oh haha, yes, Mr. Platypus himself! Please no boxes or labels. ;) I had no idea the DSM was so flawed, Sara's book goes into detail about it all—it's quite astonishing that it's still psychiatrist's main diagnostic tool.
Haha yep you better believe Mr Platypus has his problems with the DSM. Evie and I, when we were younger, both got labeled (incorrectly I might add) by docs using the DSM here in Aus.
So glad Sara’s work is helping to open minds about such things. :)
Hard to beat this conversation! If I had a dollar for every diagnosis we’ve been handed about our daughter, I could fund my own DSM—except mine would just say, ‘She’s spectacular. Proceed accordingly.’ For us, it was always more about the specific interventions that worked for her and less about diagnostic framing or trends. At one point, she was PDD-NOS with NVLD, ADHD, and OCD. So many letters. It was absurd. She was seven!
If only every diagnosis began and ended with "She's spectacular. Proceed accordingly." I love this so much. Hope I get to meet your young spectaculars someday.
Such a great interview! I'm one who began receiving diagnoses from late teens through my twenties...each one piling on my belief I was "going crazy." I ended up becoming a psychotherapist in my desire to help other people, and using the DSM IV and V myself, but there was a lot of cognitive dissonance happening as I did so. AND...there was the fact that although I experienced short spurts of time when I no longer "felt" the anxiety and depression of my youth, it never entirely remitted. Self-awareness and self-compassion has replaced all the "work" I did to try to eradicate every symptom. I love Sarah's work and yours too, Kimberly.
Thanks for sharing Linda. I love how you say this, "self-awareness and self-compassion has replaces all the work I did to try to eradicate every symptom." That summarizes Unfixed perfectly! We are never told how much the "fixing" can be a subtle (but powerful) form of violence or self-negation. Sure we can pursue treatments, but the process needs to be held in a larger context of being friendly with contradiction, uncertainty, and pain.
"I don't know what you have" is a remarkable jumping off point for such a liberating journey and one that has resulted in such a major contribution to all our understanding and empathy and accepting the relationship between physical and emotional ....it seems no creative person has an unobstructed path forward and also not a coincidence that Sarah relies on deep research to calm in the face of challenge which brings to mind Joan Didion in combatting grief or David Foster Wallace's endless footnotes under his essays. Its not surprising you two had found each other and its a providential connection that benefits so many!!!
Isn't it though? To acknowledge not knowing is EVERYTHING, and like you say, a great "jumping off point" for a deeper lesson in learning to live in the grey, tolerate uncertainty, and discover the aliveness, presence, and creativity that not knowing inspires.
I was diagnosed with severe general anxiety disorder and saw a psychologist for 4 years of pure hell. Several attempts at meds, shamans, kumbaya retreats up the ying yang! Only to find out I had graves disease! My symptoms were very much "psychological" and once I was sent down that hallway that is all that was seen. At that time my world was going through a cataclysmic nutra bullet moment. My second son was born early and died several times, my father died, and my abusive ex-husband went off the rails and I "thought " I was holding it together like collecting feral cats into a pick up truck going 100 mph! I guess something had to break! Thank you Sara and Kim for sharing an amazing POP (point of pivot/perspective) moment for me. I think I am cured!!
Boy Shannon, what a nightmare. I would've liked to have seen that psychologist's face after learning that you had Grave's! Big oops on his part. This is why I'm such an advocate for care teams, not individuals. Conversely, when I was diagnosed with Grave's at 22, I could've benefited from a psychotherapist to identify some of my unexpressed grief and fear still coursing through my body since dad's death. It's never just one thing, is it? We are multitudes. ;)
It was a narrow-minded oops by all parties. Why didn't the psychologist understand what was happening in my life and relate it my biology. The psycho-neuro-immunology that was so obvious in hindsight could have been hit someone's radar. Self advocacy and absolutely team care is so important. "we are multitudes!" Everywhere everywhere all at once!"
Do these self-appointed experts ever realise how much damage they do to people at a very young and most vulnerable age? Do any of them ever apologise? What about their capacity for self-reflection?
The ability to work your way out of the 'therapeutic jungle' against so many odds, and find your own path towards healing, is a miracle and speaks of extraordinary resilience and intelligence of the human spirit and mind.
Beautifully stated Veronika, I couldn't agree more. Sarah's ability to weather the storms, use her powers of intellect and intuition to assess and reassess her long, winding journey through the mental healthcare system, and then offer up pearls of wisdom for the rest of us is remarkable. I love how she reframed cure as care. Seems like one of those etymological dives you might enjoy.
funny you should say that! I have thought about the linguistic connection between 'cure' and 'care', and it is indeed an interesting (and obvious) one, since the Latin word 'cura' [= care, concern, trouble] was originally adopted in English in the sense of 'care, heed'. The meaning of 'treatment' came in about 100 years later.
Meanwhile, the English word 'care' [related to Old Saxon and Gothic 'kara' = sorrow] originally meant 'sorrow, anxiety, grief, trouble'.
Two words differing in only one vowel and so closely related. I always find such relationships in words intriguing, and yes, it could be fun and interesting to dedicate a whole wordcast on it. xx
Ah, your and Sarah's stories were such lifelines for my recovery (and still are for my continued recovery), so reading you both here together is just wonderful. And affirming. I'm doing my own research (in spurts between my actual pysch coursework) on a-typical eating disorders... Like Sarah, looking for answers to questions about my lived experience that don't fit diagnostic categories... It's great to know I'm not the only one living the questions, so to speak. I'm so glad I found you both here on substack 🙏✨
I’m so glad you found your way to both our stories Micah. We need each other’s stories in this world—it’s too easy to dismiss how our journeys and the telling of them might be a lifeline for someone else. I imagine your story also being a guide for others someday!
Thank you both for a very inspiring and educational interview. Pearls of wisdom;
“I am not my diagnosis”
“I had been seeing a psychiatrist who was also my therapist. So he was playing both roles, ill-advised, everyone listening, ill-advised, because you don't have anyone to talk to about your psychiatrist and no one to talk to about your therapist”
“mental health recovery”
“I thought, wait, I can recover?”
Isn't Sarah great? So many pearls. I felt like I was deep sea diving and surfacing with all kinds of treasure.
Such an amazing conversation. Sarah’s thoughts on the issues with the DSM and the way these categories, while helpful for some, can also be unhelpful or even harmful for others — is such an important and powerful point! And being as someone who has his own problems with labels and categories, that stuff really resonated with me.
Thank you both for an illuminating conversation. :)
Oh haha, yes, Mr. Platypus himself! Please no boxes or labels. ;) I had no idea the DSM was so flawed, Sara's book goes into detail about it all—it's quite astonishing that it's still psychiatrist's main diagnostic tool.
Haha yep you better believe Mr Platypus has his problems with the DSM. Evie and I, when we were younger, both got labeled (incorrectly I might add) by docs using the DSM here in Aus.
So glad Sara’s work is helping to open minds about such things. :)
Hard to beat this conversation! If I had a dollar for every diagnosis we’ve been handed about our daughter, I could fund my own DSM—except mine would just say, ‘She’s spectacular. Proceed accordingly.’ For us, it was always more about the specific interventions that worked for her and less about diagnostic framing or trends. At one point, she was PDD-NOS with NVLD, ADHD, and OCD. So many letters. It was absurd. She was seven!
If only every diagnosis began and ended with "She's spectacular. Proceed accordingly." I love this so much. Hope I get to meet your young spectaculars someday.
Such a great interview! I'm one who began receiving diagnoses from late teens through my twenties...each one piling on my belief I was "going crazy." I ended up becoming a psychotherapist in my desire to help other people, and using the DSM IV and V myself, but there was a lot of cognitive dissonance happening as I did so. AND...there was the fact that although I experienced short spurts of time when I no longer "felt" the anxiety and depression of my youth, it never entirely remitted. Self-awareness and self-compassion has replaced all the "work" I did to try to eradicate every symptom. I love Sarah's work and yours too, Kimberly.
Thanks for sharing Linda. I love how you say this, "self-awareness and self-compassion has replaces all the work I did to try to eradicate every symptom." That summarizes Unfixed perfectly! We are never told how much the "fixing" can be a subtle (but powerful) form of violence or self-negation. Sure we can pursue treatments, but the process needs to be held in a larger context of being friendly with contradiction, uncertainty, and pain.
Absolutely!
Wonderful interview/conversation. The insights are life changing. Thx for the pearls of wisdom.
I finally realized that if I need to wear glasses to improve my vision then it’s ok to be on anti depressants.
"I don't know what you have" is a remarkable jumping off point for such a liberating journey and one that has resulted in such a major contribution to all our understanding and empathy and accepting the relationship between physical and emotional ....it seems no creative person has an unobstructed path forward and also not a coincidence that Sarah relies on deep research to calm in the face of challenge which brings to mind Joan Didion in combatting grief or David Foster Wallace's endless footnotes under his essays. Its not surprising you two had found each other and its a providential connection that benefits so many!!!
Isn't it though? To acknowledge not knowing is EVERYTHING, and like you say, a great "jumping off point" for a deeper lesson in learning to live in the grey, tolerate uncertainty, and discover the aliveness, presence, and creativity that not knowing inspires.
Kimberly, this was especially helpful. I needed the reminder that cure is care for and may not mean my symptoms disappear!
You’re so welcome Judy. I love that reframing too.
I was diagnosed with severe general anxiety disorder and saw a psychologist for 4 years of pure hell. Several attempts at meds, shamans, kumbaya retreats up the ying yang! Only to find out I had graves disease! My symptoms were very much "psychological" and once I was sent down that hallway that is all that was seen. At that time my world was going through a cataclysmic nutra bullet moment. My second son was born early and died several times, my father died, and my abusive ex-husband went off the rails and I "thought " I was holding it together like collecting feral cats into a pick up truck going 100 mph! I guess something had to break! Thank you Sara and Kim for sharing an amazing POP (point of pivot/perspective) moment for me. I think I am cured!!
Boy Shannon, what a nightmare. I would've liked to have seen that psychologist's face after learning that you had Grave's! Big oops on his part. This is why I'm such an advocate for care teams, not individuals. Conversely, when I was diagnosed with Grave's at 22, I could've benefited from a psychotherapist to identify some of my unexpressed grief and fear still coursing through my body since dad's death. It's never just one thing, is it? We are multitudes. ;)
It was a narrow-minded oops by all parties. Why didn't the psychologist understand what was happening in my life and relate it my biology. The psycho-neuro-immunology that was so obvious in hindsight could have been hit someone's radar. Self advocacy and absolutely team care is so important. "we are multitudes!" Everywhere everywhere all at once!"
Saving this for later. But so excited. Two of my favourite people on substack. Can hardly wait to listen. Full of wisdom I’m sure!
Yay! So happy to deliver Kim!
A really empowering and inspiring listen, thank you both!
So glad you liked it Nathan!
Wonderful interview! Thank you both so much.
Do these self-appointed experts ever realise how much damage they do to people at a very young and most vulnerable age? Do any of them ever apologise? What about their capacity for self-reflection?
The ability to work your way out of the 'therapeutic jungle' against so many odds, and find your own path towards healing, is a miracle and speaks of extraordinary resilience and intelligence of the human spirit and mind.
Beautifully stated Veronika, I couldn't agree more. Sarah's ability to weather the storms, use her powers of intellect and intuition to assess and reassess her long, winding journey through the mental healthcare system, and then offer up pearls of wisdom for the rest of us is remarkable. I love how she reframed cure as care. Seems like one of those etymological dives you might enjoy.
funny you should say that! I have thought about the linguistic connection between 'cure' and 'care', and it is indeed an interesting (and obvious) one, since the Latin word 'cura' [= care, concern, trouble] was originally adopted in English in the sense of 'care, heed'. The meaning of 'treatment' came in about 100 years later.
Meanwhile, the English word 'care' [related to Old Saxon and Gothic 'kara' = sorrow] originally meant 'sorrow, anxiety, grief, trouble'.
Two words differing in only one vowel and so closely related. I always find such relationships in words intriguing, and yes, it could be fun and interesting to dedicate a whole wordcast on it. xx
Wonderful interview - both of you.
Thought you might like this one Teyani. x
Ah, your and Sarah's stories were such lifelines for my recovery (and still are for my continued recovery), so reading you both here together is just wonderful. And affirming. I'm doing my own research (in spurts between my actual pysch coursework) on a-typical eating disorders... Like Sarah, looking for answers to questions about my lived experience that don't fit diagnostic categories... It's great to know I'm not the only one living the questions, so to speak. I'm so glad I found you both here on substack 🙏✨
I’m so glad you found your way to both our stories Micah. We need each other’s stories in this world—it’s too easy to dismiss how our journeys and the telling of them might be a lifeline for someone else. I imagine your story also being a guide for others someday!
We do indeed 📚 that's exactly it - story lifelines... Thank you, I hope so too 😉💫
World needs these voices,
book, conversation to heal.
-Says psychologist.
...
Thanks for clarion call,
reminder, inspiration.
May care lead to cure.