Slow blooming with Nathan

Unfixed interview

"Writing is the most true to myself that I can be."

“To me, it's just exhilarating, the notion that you can have a seed of an idea and then the only way to find out where the plot is going to go is by inhabiting those characters and the situation and just writing it and finding out. And that's pretty much how I do everything when I write.”

-Nathan Slake, writer, scientist, dreamer

Occasionally, I’ll discover a writer whose prose tastes like food—nourishing food, delicious food. Phrases that slow me down, descriptions to savor, sentences that land in my body like sun-warmed blackberries: complete and whole, yet always leaving me wanting more.

Nathan Slake is one of those writers. While his professional life is spent within the walls of academia, teaching and researching immunology, his soul resides in storytelling. I’ve found a kindred spirit, a brother-from-another-mother, in Nathan. I nodded throughout our conversation like a bobblehead as I related to his experiences of being a “slow bloomer,” his love for “slow reading,” and the not-so-slow exhilaration of creating and writing without a map, where deep listening precedes strategizing.

Nathan is someone to keep on your radar, friends! His imagination and craft are already captivating the minds and hearts of many readers. And while he humbly admits to only “discovering his soul” in his 30s—largely due to a deliberate cultivation of attentive presence and deep conversations with his wife Josephine—this soul is already a mosaic of memorable landscapes and characters, all grappling with poignant themes on the nature of consciousness and what it means to be human.

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Transcript:

Kimberly

Nathan, welcome. This is so cool. From the land down under, so happy to have you here. And I just want to say, first of all, and I think I've mentioned this in comments before too, but your fiction and the characters that you develop, they have this power over your readers. And I know I'm not the only one because I've read this in comments, but you, pull us in with like within two lines.

And all I can hope is that I can deliver today and ask you questions that do the same because something about your language and the world that you create really open up portals for us. So my goal today is that somehow we get to kind of peer into the heart of Nathan and learn a little bit more about your experience as a writer.

Nathan

Thank you. I mean, I feel incredibly honored for this. I don't feel worthy. You know, it's weird for me to think back on already the journey that has been, you know, publishing on Substack for the last year and a half for me. And never thought I'd be sitting here being interviewed by someone like you. So I really appreciate it and you reaching out and for anyone listening, definitely nervous about this because I was just saying that to Kimberly that I'm far more comfortable writing words than I am speaking them. So I'm going to apologize in advance if I bumble over things.

Kimberly

Well, and like I said to you, I am the same way. So we're in the same boat. So let's just like invent our own language today. So let's I kind of want to start not from the beginning, like when you were born, but I know that you relocated. And for me, sometimes part of the messiness of life involves kind of needing a hard reset. And we know often when that is in our life. Maybe there's a couple of them in our lives. In your case, you decided to exit the UK and start something completely new in Australia. I kind of want to know a little bit about this reset, anything you want to share about it and how that's been important for you.

Nathan

Yeah, I think reset is definitely the right word to use to describe that. You know, I'd spent three and a half-ish years doing a PhD in immunology, science, cancer immunology, viral immunology, and that was really tough. You know, I think anyone who goes to a PhD has a tough time. I think that's part of what it's meant to be. And it was also the end of a fairly long-term relationship at the time as well and I'd kind of found myself transitioning into another relationship and it was just, I think I just, I needed that fresh start and I wanted to explore, I wanted to travel and it just, I got lucky I think is really the best way I can describe it in terms being offered a position over in, Melbourne and Australia. And I just kind of went for it.

And it's weird. I've been thinking back on, on this quite a lot lately, because, you know, as, as I'm aging, you start to hit those milestones and particularly with how long, you know, it's been over 15 years since I moved. And I think with every five year increment, I do reflect on it a bit. And it's a surreal thing to think back on that move now for me, because I don't know if I'd do it now. I was early mid twenties and it was just an easy thing to go, sure, let's go for it and see what happens. And I'm obviously so glad I did. It was genuinely life-changing for me and met my now wife over in Australia. And yeah, it was a time when I needed to just the fresh start and a hard reset. I think it's the only real way I can describe it. And I was just willing to do it. And that disastrous relationship turned into another one that didn't end all so well and kind of battered me around a fair bit.

But it was, yeah, you look back on life and there are those seminal moments and important moments. And that's obviously a big one there. So I don't know if that's gotten to your question.

Kimberly

Yeah, no, it does. And relationships tend to kind of drag us around the planet sometimes. I was just thinking as you were talking, I moved to Australia for a year to be in relationship and you know, similar to you, I was young in my 20s and I'm thinking now would I have ever done that now? No way. But I think those are like you said pivotal moments in our lives and life changing so it sounds like the Nathan in the UK was very different than the current Nathan.

Nathan

Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, I am a slow bloomer, you know, I think we've had those comments before about this and, or late bloomer, I should say, and I was still finding myself back then. I guess that's normal. I think maybe it happens to different people at different stages, but I was definitely a different person. And I, you know, I think part of this reflection I've been doing is, it's just wondering, you know, that those forking paths that are always occurring in life, where, where I would be now had I stayed, what would my happiness level be? You what would I have pursued? And you obviously can't answer those questions. But I do know that it was part of shaping me in moving out here. So yeah.

Kimberly

Yeah, I want to actually go over to that slow bloomer. I actually like slow bloomer versus late bloomer because late implies that it's somehow a negative. But I'm going with the slow and I completely relate to that too. And I think you wrote somewhere or you mentioned that you feel like you actually discovered your soul in your 30s. And I want to know, everyone probably has a version of that and they know what they mean by it, but what do you mean by discovering your soul in your 30s?

Nathan

Yeah, I don't know if I'm qualified to answer your excellent questions.

Kimberly

It doesn't have to be deep. mean, just like first thing that comes off off the top of your head.

Nathan

Yeah, it's an ongoing thing. I think for me, it's self awareness, right? It's part of, I had a great childhood, but I really can't say anything really negative about my childhood and upbringing. But I will say that I I was pretty reserved in my ambitions and really coherently thinking about the future and I think I kind of just went with what felt right and I don't think that's a bad thing and I've always subscribed to this, maybe not fate, but this notion that you can feel out luck in life and you can know what decisions feel right and don't feel right and that can help guide you and I think a lot of a lot of my childhood and my teens was kind of subconsciously going with the flow and being a little bit, I don't know, if I was to go back, I think I'd be a bit more self-motivated about what I was doing and what my goals were. And I think it was only really meeting my wife and her influence because she's a great philosopher and psychologist and thinks so in depth about everything going on, that brought that aspect out of me, I think, and I started to be a lot more present in my thinking in my 30s and just self-aware of everything. And I think that to me gets to that soul aspect of being internally reflective, I suppose.

Kimberly

I love that answer. It's accessible, it doesn't have this terminology attached to it that is like, Well, what does that mean? How do I? It’s just a presence with oneself and an awareness of the inner workings and the relations that come from that. And I'm also similar to you in that I feel like I look back on life, childhood, and I was just bopping around and not really strategizing my life.

Nathan

Yeah, yeah, that's a good term.

Kimberly

Just going with whatever happens and you kind of get those gut feelings like, I'm going to go to Australia or whatever. But it doesn't, it didn't have this ownership almost of, This is what I love. And, This is what I want. I really appreciate that answer. And, and it obviously is coming out in your writing. So let's talk a little bit about, actually let's talk a lot about your writing.

You first started to write under a different surname and I know you straddle these two different existences, career paths, and I'd like to hear a little bit about your choice to write under a different surname at first.

Nathan

Yeah, I mean it's something that was an instant choice for me when I started my Substack, you know, writing under Nathan Slake and I realize looking at the screen now that I've only written Nathan, so we'll leave that ambiguity there by not having my surname. Yeah, it was an easy choice for me because, you know, I'd dabbled with writing and I'd written things for me and shared a bit, looking back on those pretty amateur-ish, I think, obviously, which is always going to be the case. But I have this duality in my life for sure when it comes to work. And it was pure cowardice and fear, think, writing under a pseudonym when I started my Substack, because I just wanted to keep that part of me separate. You know, if Jo listens to this, she's going to laugh I fret, I tell her, you know, how much I worry about people at work knowing that I do this because when I'm at work and I guess if anyone's worked in an office environment or similar where you're around colleagues that, you know, they are your friends, some of them are close friends, others are very much just a professional relationship. There is this kind of boundary there. And I think some people are quite comfortable just being open about their private lives and what they do, other people a bit more reserved.

And I think for me, I don't know, science and writing, even though writing is inherent to science, but creative writing, it just feels like, my brain thinks that people at work will just look at it and go, what are you doing? I don't understand why you're doing this. And there's also some reservation that I don't want to give away pieces of my internalization in that regard and so it just I feel naturally far more comfortable at the moment at least writing under a you know, I have my picture on there so you kind of would be able to know it's me if you thought it might be me but discoverability-wise or if someone stumbles upon me online randomly it's you know there's not that connection.

Yeah it's at least at the moment it's still that sense of there's always I mean I've I've struggled with imposter syndrome my whole life and that I don't think that's ever going to go away but I think writing for me is the most true to myself that I can be and I love that, I really do, but there's this automatic protection barrier that comes down at the moment for me where if I'm willing to share, even though I'm writing mostly fiction, I just want that slight disconnect still. And yeah, that's the best way I can describe that, I think.

Kimberly

It makes a lot of sense to me the way you described it, Nathan, because it sounds precious, this writing life for you is very, dare I even say sacred, it's like this space for you that you don't want to bring it to show and tell. You want to keep it in a special box and open it up when you come home. I think there's...I don't know if there's anything that sort of necessitates that you do share it with the other world, you know, because it's something that might always need to be private. I mean, it's not private in the sense that you're sharing it on Substack. And so you’re building a community over here with us. But I would feel tentative about sharing something like that too, because I would want it stay precious, you know, and the world is messy and mean.

Nathan

Yeah, yeah. But I think, you know, the flip side of that though, I mean, as you just said, an important point, the community on Substack is incredible. Like I've been in, you know, I've dabbled on online communities and things like Reddit and stuff, but there is something wonderful, at least our corner that I experience, the fiction side and a few others, the community is wonderful. And, you know, I really applaud you Kimberly for your memoir, which is just mind blowing. Because you, I mean, you're bearing your soul on there, right? To me, something like that, that feels more important that it's truly you that I'm reading. And I, you know, I have a lot of respect for, for what you did with that. If anyone hasn't read it and happens to be listening to this, you really must read it.

Kimberly

Thank you. It was one of those things where I had to share it. It got to that point where I had been carrying it inside of me for so long that part of my identity it was like my own coming out party. I like, I need to claim myself in the world. And part of that was having a voice. So you've been such a wonderful part of that community as I started sharing it last year.

We're all different and we write differently on Substack, but there are some themes that come through. And one of them I recognize with you and some of the other writers is, and you described it as slow reading. And I had never heard of this phrase before. And that's it. That's exactly what love!

And from my understanding, it's about savoring, not just the story, but the plot and how it's crafted. your prose just invites me to reread and slow down. And I even in, you know, your little essays about coffee in the morning, you know, where you're not even writing fiction, you're just kind of baring your soul a little bit. There's the way you craft your sentences is just tasty. So is this a deliberate decision or have you kind of always been that type of writer?

Nathan

No, definitely not. It's something that's emerged since I've been writing regularly and you know, I suppose I thank my own stupid self-imposed deadlines of trying to write once a week to establish this rhythm over the last year and a half. I've always been a big reader, but I used to read primarily for plot, for story, for characters to just go with the ride. But I think internalizing and thinking and knowing that deep down what I really love and really want to be doing more full-time is writing has made me, and again, being a slow bloomer to the world of sort of literary fiction, everything that I read now in books, I'm far more analytical in the way that I approach reading, not in a sort of criticism sort of way, but I love reading now to dissect how an author is able to convey what they convey. And there are some writers who I just love because of their prose and trying to kind of analyze how they do that fascinates me.

And I think that's part of what’s slowed me down in my reading, just to savor and enjoy sentences and paragraphs and the magic that can be possible with the arrangement of words, you know, and I love this idea, the kind of the flavor that you can get from a sentence that you just can't get through any other medium as much as I love other mediums. To me that's something that has only really become apparent properly to me in the last couple of years and I think since I've been writing I've just, it's really what I'm striving for. I think everyone wants to craft their own style I suppose and for me it's that, you know, I will labour over a sentence for stupid amounts of time. And I think no more so than in the Sernox, which I hold very dear to me because I don't know where that story came from and I don't know how it came out, but it came out at a time. And that whole process was just agonizing over the construction of each individual sentence and nothing has ever brought me so much joy than doing that. And I know I'm still learning and still growing in that process, but yeah, writing short things, but then being slow, slow things to approach, I think is where I feel comfortable now.

Kimberly

You know, I think that you described that writing is probably, possibly one of the best mediums for extracting that flavor. And it made me think all of a sudden, I was like, you know what? Well, obviously you would think like the culinary arts, that's where you get the most flavor. But I think you might be right because if you just eat a peach, yeah, I mean, you might be just like, This is so great. But if you read a paragraph, about someone eating a peach, I guarantee you, you'd probably be savoring that peach a lot more than if you just ate it. But that's the power of really good prose. And also, so you referred to the Sernox—and I will put a little blurb on the top of this so that people can access all of the wonderful short stories that you've written—but the Sernox was one of the first stories I read. There's so many layers in it and it was chilling and frustrating when it ended. And I feel like a lot of your themes actually are about relationships. And I'm wondering if there's something you're working out in your own life about, do you feel like you get to work on yourself a little bit as you're working through these relationships and your characters? How does your writing help you navigate that?

Nathan

Yeah, it's a central thing for me, for sure. Relationships have always been one of the most important things in my life, friendships as well as more intimate relationships. But I've been burned multiple times, badly. And that's not a bad thing, you know, obviously they're traumatic at the time. And these are difficult things to go through, but I wouldn't be who I was if I hadn't been battered mentally by not necessarily the breaking up of a relationship, but just the process and trauma that for various reasons, a couple of particular relationships involved and one in particular just destroyed any sense of self-confidence that I had in myself. It took really meeting Jo and our sort of burgeoning relationship to rebuild that. that took some time. And so I think that I'm sure I'm still processing a lot of that stuff.

And I think I'm just naturally drawn to dialogue a lot and interaction and just the proximity of that kind of interaction I find fascinating. When I think of films, I remember a key moment of, it was when the Social Network came out and I was never a fan of Facebook, but I think David Fincher's Social Network is a brilliant piece of film. The opening scene, the dialogue in that opening scene is just incredible. And I remember that was a key moment for me of thinking, Wow, I really want to be able to write the intensity of a scene like that. And so I'm really just drawn to how you can convey without being explicit, emotions and feelings, and just create tension with minimalism, I suppose. People have said my prose is often somewhat poetic and I think I love playing with that space when it comes to relationships as well. So yeah, it's partly just processing relationships from my own experience, but also just wanting to explore what's possible to give the reader an immediacy of intimacy when it comes down to those things. You know, I think that's why I default to the first person. I will write and I need to write more in the third person…

Kimberly

I don’t think you do, why do you say you need to?

Nathan

Well, I suppose as an exploration and just try…but my default is 100% the first person because I love how confined and claustrophobic it is. And there's just the narrow viewpoints you can get that don't give you everything. To me, that's part of the joy of reading is limited viewpoints.

Kimberly

Similar to the scenarios that I wrote about in my memoir, if we're putting ourselves back into a situation, even if it's fiction and we're crafting something that is resembling an emotional charge that we had during a relationship, one of the beautiful things about writing, I think, is that we can put ourselves back there, but we're safe.

And like you described after this relationship ended and you just like you didn't have your self confidence anymore. That makes me think that there were probably periods of time where you didn't feel safe. And then if you get to kind of put yourself back there, but know that you're safe, I feel like it does something to our brain, something good.

Nathan

Yeah, yeah, it's therapy in a way, I suppose, right? It's a way of dealing and reliving, even if not directly. Yeah.

Kimberly

But speaking of safety, you take it to the next level because…I think it was your first serialized fiction Brae’s Meteorite.

Nathan

Incomplete. Work in progress.

Kimberly

Yeah, exactly. So you decided to write this story without much of a map of how your characters are going to or how everything's going to unfold, including the characters. And actually, I'll just read what you wrote here. You said, “There's a lot of entries and I'm not yet sure I truly understand everything that's written within. It's like I still have to piece it all together, map it out, work out which entries go where, how the timeline fits, and if there even is a timeline.” And this is your character saying this, but I get the sense that was also you not knowing where this story will go. And that's scary—talk about not putting yourself in safety. Tell me about that.

Nathan

Yeah, I mean I have no training as a writer, right? I approach this through pure passion and desire and I suppose part of that is the thrill that I'm giving myself by not planning. And I know through reading about writing from various authors, there's this kind of division, people that plot extensively. And I don't like the opposite term, “pantser.”

Kimberly

What's the term?

Nathan

I think “pantser,” as in you're flying by the seat of your pants.

Kimberly

I've never heard that term before.

Nathan

Yeah, I much prefer the first term I heard that was “gardener.” And I think George Martin described himself as a gardener. And I think Stephen King as well, where they will plant seeds, but they don't know how the garden is going to grow. And often it's just about embodying and living in with those characters and finding out. And to me, it's just exhilarating, that notion that you can have a seed of an idea and then the only way that you can find out where the plot is going to go is by inhabiting those characters and the situation and just writing it and finding out. And that's pretty much how I do everything when I write. And with Brae’s Meterorite I have this, I do have an arc. I know where this story is going to go, but it's a very broad stroke. And I think one of the problems—and to anyone who's read thank you for bearing with me because it's a very irregular thing for me to post an entry there—there's an inherent sort of underlying complexity to the story that hasn't really properly come out yet. And that in itself, it's quite difficult for me to map out.

And it takes a lot. And I'm bad for doing this sort of flitting between characters, between stories and ideas, you know, like get excited about something and then delve into that and maybe leave something else slightly behind. With Brae’s Meteorite, particularly just embodying Ren, the protagonist, whose diary we are sort of privy to reading. It takes quite a lot to sort of re-put myself back into that character and I need to, it's one of my goals at the moment is to sort of find some way of getting back to that frequently and ironing out the kinks that I know need to be ironed out. But it certainly, you the Sernox came from an opening paragraph that I scribbled down on my phone one day that just came from nowhere. And then I just wrote, you know, it was a feverish few weeks.

And I know

Ben Wakeman

whose work I love, recently spoke about this returning to his current serial which is incredible. He said that you know he just suddenly just threw himself into it and just wrote and wrote and wrote and it all just started coming out and those are the moments that I think every writer wants to experience when you're just you're not really doing it you're just being shown it by the characters.

Kimberly

It's so thrilling that you put yourself there and Ben puts himself there. We follow a lot of the similar writers and I think you're right, you're in the pulse of pure creativity when the stories just unfolds before you.

So I don't know, “pantser” “gardener,” all of them, I can raise my hand and say, I've endeavored to be that way. It's certainly how my memoir came out, but that's pretty easy when you're writing, well, This is what happened to me. So the map was already there.

Nathan

Sure, but the way you did it was pretty special.

Kimberly

So I know that you want to spend more time with your writing and I'm guessing as a writer in science, you have to have a pretty clear map. It's a completely different style that you have, or a different part of your brain that you have to access when you're doing science writing versus fiction writing.

Sometimes you mention in your essays that you're juggling this research and teaching and this larger sense of self-worth and your achievements and goals. Even you said that your colleagues are much more unidimensional in their work. And they don't even know that you have this other life, and you don't want to live in a unidimensional way.

So what is it about your writing life that nurtures something that your career can't? And how do you resolve that tension of not really getting to give this life as much as you want to?

Nathan

I wish I had the perfect answer for that. It's a constant battle, I think.

I have, I think I mentioned at the beginning, this sort of dual life in a way, right? I work as an academic and I teach and that's a wonderful career and I feel very lucky to have found myself in that position. And science is creative. I think one of the reasons I was drawn to science is, I think I have an analytical part of my brain and a creative part of my brain and they are vying for attention. Often, sometimes one is ahead of the other and sometimes the other was clamoring to have more head space. There is an overlap and some of that creativity comes in experimental design and how you approach work in science. And I know that that does nurture some of that side, but over the years I've become a little bit more office-bound, and teaching and so I'm less directly in the lab these days. And I don't know, I think I never took it seriously when I was younger that I would really pursue writing properly, but there's always been this burning desire of needing to be creative within me.

Which is funny because, you my father was a, he's retired now, but he was a pharmacist. He trained as a pharmacist and very science minded, you know, to him fiction is why bother? It's not real, why bother? And so I don't know where it comes from. I mean, there's obviously a blend with my mum and my dad in terms of their interests and likes, but this side of me, I suppose, has felt unique and I don't know how to win that battle in my brain, to be honest. There are times when I have to turn to writing to sort of pull back from the intensity of work. And I've been thinking about this as well because lately I've been finding it a bit harder to find this groove of finding writing time.

And it's that thing of the more you do, the easier it is to do more that I sometimes find. And I know that the first part of the year is when I'm busiest with my teaching. And I think there's just something about that period of time where I have less time, but somehow I find more time. At the moment things are slowed down a little bit and I actually ironically find it harder to find writing time.

I've wavered so much from your original question, sorry.

Kimberly

No, but I love what you're saying, because I think a lot of people can relate to that sense. I mean, even just like I told you, we've been recovering from covid over here. And you’d think just laying around for two weeks would be like, Oh my god, I have so many ideas and I want to write! But nooooo. And I think once the synapses get firing on other projects and engaged with people again, then it creates more energy to do those other things even though you have less time.

So I have to ask, do your parents know about your fiction?

Nathan

No, and actually, I meant to say that earlier on. No, I've toyed with whether to tell them and I'm almost thinking about maybe this interview would be the way to go, Hey, I did this. My brother, my brother knows. Hi, Sam, if you hear this. And my wife knows, but from sort of a family side, no. And it's weird. And and again, I don't really know why.

I've really struggled to know why and maybe there's a bit of fear there about fully—I talk about some personal things when I write—maybe there's a slight barrier there with wanting to just fully express in that manner. Maybe it's because I tend towards darker themes at times, often, that there's a little bit of, I don't know, fear around that.

Yeah, it's one of, you know, Jo and I have talked about (sorry, I'm being chased by sunlight, it's a rare, beautiful morning in August) Yeah, so no, they don't know.

Kimberly

So like the Sernox, if they read that and didn't know the author, would they recognize your voice in it?

Nathan

I don't think so.

Kimberly

Wow, this is exciting. Because like you said earlier, there is a bit part of your soul that is emerging in your writing and an awareness that you have of yourself and the way that you articulate that throughout characters is vulnerable. I mean, really vulnerable. So yeah, to be able to have that witnessed by some of the people in your life is, is yeah, I’m very curious to hear how that goes.

Nathan

Okay, I'll let you know.

Kimberly

One of the other things that's cool about you, there's lots of cool things about you, but I love that you were a magician. And I don't want to veer completely off of writing. I want to know how magic and writing are similar.

Because I know nothing about magic other than that it's cool and it's awesome and I'm always fooled. So tell me a little bit if there was an overlap there for you.

Nathan

Yeah, I think it's that creativity side and a desire to express. Certainly growing up, you know, I got into it in my early teens, but I didn't really begin to take it, I mean, I kept up with it, but it was very much a solo endeavor. I was lucky to get various books and I just spent my time reading and with this obsessive desire to learn magic, particularly close-up magic, largely card magic. It was an escape for me. It was a way to find some confidence in my teenage self. And when I got to university, I think it's cliche to say that you sort of coming out of your shell, but that was certainly the major thing that happened to me going to university. And magic kind of went hand in hand with that because it was a way almost to put up this sort of pseudo persona as a slight barrier but also as a confidence front I suppose. And then I started working semi-professionally doing wedding magic, bar magic, that kind of stuff which I now look back on and think wow I can't believe I did that.

But I'm almost certain the overlap that comes with that is about, I guess I suppose there is some irony there, that it was both about having a sort of false front but at the same time it's about being vulnerable because there is a vulnerability in performing any kind of performance and so it allowed me to connect with people and I love that. I have written a few things about magic and one of the things that I respect most about good magic is that it's not at all about you the performer, it's about the audience and how you can connect and bring a moment of magic and experience to an audience and I think that's the same with writing, right? It's about how you can create wonder through the written word is very similar in terms of that feeling of euphoria or movement or sadness that you can be, any performing art can also elicit. So yeah, I think at surface level, it's harder to see the connection, but when I really think about it, actually, it's all about expression for me.

Kimberly

I love how you described magic being more about the audience than the magician. And like I said, right when I opened this, you have this magical ability to pull your readers in. I mean, almost hypnotically sometimes where it's like, Why am I so invested in this all of a sudden? And it's two lines in. Sometimes I'll buy a book and it'll sit on my bed stand and I can't get through the first chapter for weeks. So, you know, there is a magic trick that you're doing on us.

Everyone always talks about magic and the sleight of hand. And I'm wondering too, if it's because you're so economical and precise and you deliberate over your sentences that it's also what's being left out, what characters are saying, what they're saying but what they're not saying. I think there's this skill of yours and it’s being used now as a writer.

Nathan

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, if there's one thing I strive for, it's that leaving things out, leaving it up to the reader to read between what's not been said.

Kimberly

So I know we've got about 10, 15 minutes left and I want to touch on there's a countless other things, there's themes that I haven't even prepared you for, but I've commented numerous times about how you animate the inanimate and I'm loving your story right now and I can never remember the name of it

Nathan

It's called And It Was Lost, I think. Yeah. It's not the original title that I had for it, but yes, that's the current title.

Kimberly

Okay. So for those listening, And it Was Lost, there's this stone that has powers beyond what anybody or myself can understand at this point.

I want to know the world that you live in. Do you feel, even as you're sitting around your objects at your desk, is there an animism to the world around you? And have you always had that? Or why is that an important part of your writing?

Nathan

I like the question. No, I don't think it's always been that. I think it's probably part of this finding the soul that we spoke about and just being more aware of surrounds and what things are, right? I turned to, or maybe I didn't turn to, but I discovered meditation a few years ago now, two or three years ago, during COVID actually.

Sam Harris, who I believe is on Substack now, through his Waking Up app. And his introductory course that he does on there, I mean, I'd never, I'd perhaps meditated once or twice before, but it was so eye-opening the way, I mean, I do love the way he speaks, but just the way he constructed that sort of introduction to what meditation is and just about being present with everything around and the nature of consciousness. I suppose some of that comes from just sitting and thinking about everything that's within our view always and our experience and how even a stone, even though it's at least as far as we're aware not conscious, but how can you embody something with presence that we don't automatically associate with that. I suppose it's an exploration of that.

There's a little bit more, and I suppose it's yet to come in the story that will question a little bit of that and provide some ambiguity around those themes. I think that's, and again, then this is perhaps some of my poorly planned processes. These things kind of just emerged and I've gone with them.

And of perhaps so because they've come arisen subconsciously, but it's only when I sit and think about them that I can identify perhaps why that might have been but but I do think this idea of just trying to always be more present and you know huge shout out to

Chloe Hope

who I know we both love. Her ability to, in every post she writes, just make you stop and just, you know, mouth wide open, just be like, right, yeah.

Kimberly

Like a sermon, and I’m not religious but if Chloe Hope started a church I would join.

Nathan

Ditto, ditto.

Kimberly

Also, it reminds me of, and I'm not going to pronounce her last name correctly, but

Julie Gabrielli

she's been encouraging some storytelling from the perspective of something in nature. So the tree is the central character instead of the human being the protagonist. There were a few stories that she wrote and then was encouraging other people to do the same, but I love that idea. And I can share them with you if you haven't seen that.

Nathan

Please do, I haven't seen them, I'm sorry, but that sounds fantastic, yeah.

Kimberly

Yeah. I mean, I just love that idea because most of our stories are human centric and that's just because we're humans. To have a stone or a tree actually be the protagonist would be quite lovely. And we need more stories like that. And I think you would answer that call really beautifully.

So, gosh, okay, I'm invested in you continuing to write and you truly are a gift to all of us and I want this to continue. So what advice for yourself and for others would you have on how to, well you talk about how work life and all of its pressures somehow fuse some seed of creative focus that occasionally grows and blooms. So how do we keep that seed nurtured but without too much pressure so that it dies a slow death?

Nathan

Wish I knew.

I... for me at least, it's about regularity. It's about not giving in to the easy path of procrastinating or walking away from something, thinking something's too hard. You know, I'm always... and this is shout out to Jo, she's one for always wanting push you outside your comfort zone. And I sometimes read writers worry about publishing, you know, Do I dare publish this and Should I do it? And I really, I would just advocate to just be out of your comfort zone with your writing, right? Be vulnerable, be daring.

I think that to me is that burning seed that keeps things going is that desire to just keep pushing and finding where things go. And for me, strictly on the process side, regularity has been absolutely key for me. The best times to write for me are first thing in the morning. I love being up early, a cup of coffee when the world is dark and quiet is the optimal time for me. And so finding that regularity is how I can try and slot into that creative process. But also just being super aware. I forget the author and I think we've mentioned it before. Who wrote Big Magic?

Kimberly

Elizabeth Gilbert

Nathan

Yeah. That book speaks about just being attuned to those moments of like, like a writer is an antenna that just ideas waft along and you've got to be receptive to them. And there will be, there have been times when I have just had to stop what I was doing and write a note on my phone for fear that the phrasing that came to me or the idea will just be lost. And, and so I think being receptive and attuned to, to world and inspiration and things that you're passionate about. Yeah, that's what's really important to me. And just not, you know, I get, I can easily get stressed out about work and just being able to take a step back and see the bigger picture is something that everyone should be doing frequently. So you should be reading

Chloe Hope

for that.

Kimberly Warner

Yeah. Yes, you should be reading Chloe Hope for that. And I think everybody is longing for that attention more and more. I actually one of the—I'm going to link it because I'm forgetting the name of her Substack—but she actually sketches and then writes poetry within those sketches. So her Substacks are a little bit more like art installations. And she was, she collects poetry and she was noticing today that her poetry collection is, or her favorite poets are all about attentiveness.

The Mary Oliver’s, the

David Whyte

’s, the John Donahue's, the ones that are slowing everything down and paying attention. And she said that sketching for her does a similar thing where she just has to notice the light and the way that the shadows carving around the leaf. And I think everybody is longing for this in our lives in some way.

Nathan

Yeah, everything's too fast-paced now, right? Attention is a tricky thing.

Kimberly

Yeah. Yeah. So it's how we nurture the seed.

I have this quote. My brother just told me this quote today and I don't even know if it is relevant, but it's “They tried to bury us, but they didn't know we were seeds.” And I love that. So, you know, all of this creative energy, whatever it is that we have inside of us, life tries to bury that.

And it does bury it, but guess what? They're seeds. And through our attention, through courage and vulnerability, we get to watch that grow. And that's what I see you doing. So last question, what's captivating your imagination lately? Is there anything in the works— you have so many projects in the works—but is there anything kind of new spinning around in your brain?

Nathan

So I mean, in terms of my reading, I've flitted with this author previously a little bit, but I'm reading a bit of Cormac McCarthy at the moment, and I'm sort of late to come to that. And I'm really fascinated by his ability to write incredibly efficient, sparse prose in a very particular style. And I don't think it's my favorite style, but there's just something about it that intrigues me that I can feel is already beginning to sort of burn away. And so maybe there'll be some exploration of just seeing how, and I'm aware that this happens to me, I'll read an author and I want to explore that author and I want to write in some way, not maybe trying to ape that author, but more as a sort of exercise, I suppose.

And that happened to me with, I'm sure I mentioned this, the Sernox was heavily inspired by the author of Solenoid, a Romanian author whose name I'm not, Mircea Cărtărescu, but I don't know how you really pronounce it. And

Dr. Kathleen Waller

, you know, we wrote a post about this author is incredible. His prose is so rich and fluid and dynamic and extensive. And that was a massive influence on me and continues to be. But I think I'm really curious to know what reading more of Cormac McCarthy will do just to sort of blend ideas in. So that's like that's inspiring me.

The the blue sky and the advent of a near spring down here is always I always find such so warming and comforting. You know, we don't have it particularly hard down in Australia for winter, but Melbourne tends to get pretty cold and rubbish, when I can see some flowers already starting to come out and the blue skies appear, it always helps me inside.

Kimberly

Mm, yeah, the changing of the seasons really does affect how we, how our creativity flows, what we're chewing on, what we don't want to chew on. I think that it really does shift us subtly, maybe or maybe not subtly, maybe profoundly.

I love that you call yourself “not a trained writer,” but that you are constantly giving yourself these exercises and trying to understand how something is written. And it seems like you're on this incredible trajectory, this growth of your own life as a writer. And I am just delighted to have had this hour with you to explore because I have a sense in 10 years, I might have to email you about 30 times before you're like, Okay, okay!

Nathan

It's such a delight to talk to you, Kimberly. I was so touched when you reached out to want to do this and I really, really thank you. And I was really worried I was just going to give you short answers and we were going to be sitting at 30 minutes and not sure how to continue, but I worry that I've done the opposite and spoken for too long.

Kimberly

Oh man, you've been so eloquent. Whatever, whoever told you that you're a better writer than a speaker, I think that they live on the same plane for you. I followed you and it felt—you speak from the heart. I really was touched by a lot of the things that you shared. So thank you for this.

And I can't wait to hear if your parents are going to be privy to this part of your life, and if they are, they are very lucky to experience it.

Nathan

Thanks so much, Kimberly.

Kimberly

Yeah, blessings. Take care.