99 Comments

What a wonderful conversation, Jonathan & Kimberly. BTW, I relate deeply to that Sylvia Plath quote about writing to discover what she’s thinking.

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Thanks so much Paul, It's true I think that somehow the practice of writing is revelatory in some way of the inner world. Such a beautiful thing to do really :)

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And you know, Jonathan, some days I get a glimpse, I mean, a real glimpse, but most of the time I have to work it out through the writing.

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I do too Paul!

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I feel like I’m in good company!

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I really enjoyed the hour listening to this interview just now. I learned so much about the behind- the-scenes mind of two great writers. Thank you.

On the subject of a mad capitalist world run by a bunch of psychos, yes I struggle along with many others just how to respond authentically with being bio-fodder for the machine, but I like your tack that despite it all one can still find a way of love and beauty.

(Auden's poem referred to is "September 1st, 1939", the date of the outbreak of WW2, and the line "We must love one another or/and die." is the last line of the penultimate verse).

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Bio-fodder, that's a chilling and excellent description! And yeah, I guess the last refuge for the bio-fodder is to hold on tight to love and beauty else all is lost. Thanks Joshua :)

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"We are bio-fodder for the machine" is a repeating line for one of my villanelles. I use the form a lot because it lends itself to satirical comment on "The System". Indeed the form has a history of such, as the 'villanella' stretching back to 16th century Italy, and was invented about the same time as the Terza Rima.

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I'm not surprised Joshua, I remember the first poem of yours I read was a villanelle about a bureaucrat. It was quite wonderful :)

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“Responding authentically” seems to be the key phrase here, and with hijacked brains/attention, many never have a chance to understand what that authentic response might be. Turning to nature seems like such a cliché answer, but I do believe she has and IS the answer.

Thanks for sharing your insight and reflections Jonathan!

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I'm hoping that one day authenticity expressed through creativity will save the world from its current trajectory.

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“Snow Globes“ is a perfect description of the worlds you create with your writing. Unique to you alone, the deep, complicated, metaphorically laced stories you tell and then somewhere in between, you shake the globe , the vision blurs with snow, and when it all settles, we the reader, often find ourselves in the forest , fresh air to breathe, perhaps one hand on a copper brown and white dog head. Inhaling and exhaling slows to an easy rhythm of imperfection syncopated with nature.Then we are left patiently waiting until the next time The Crow takes flight and lands at our front door. I think that is part of what I love about your writing, I am the same; “I go to nature to be soothed and healed, and to have my senses put in order. ~ (John Burroughs) . Ultimately Jonathan’s masterful mind spins faster than I can think. I feel as though I am dropped into the center of an intricate web filled with mystery, the art of deception once rooted in truths, and eventually filled with beauty in the midst of solace .

“… he balances with remarkable ease and light-heartedness” , I agree. If there is such a thing as dogs being pen pals, then this is from Ranger to Benny;

“Did he consult with you before he so blatantly ‘exposed’ you to the general public, and without giving you credit as the mastermind of his writing world? No? I didn’t think so, ( he woofs in disgust). Wonderful questions Kimberly, it must be just as hard to find the right questions to ask Jonathan, as it must be for him to answer. Especially when he writes with the unique ability to never remain in the confines of just one box. (🙏for the compliment).

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Dear Ranger, now I’m curious, how much of what we’ve learned and loved from Lor is being masterminded behind-the-scenes by you?

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Ha! Yes, wait a minute, who is the mastermind pulling the strings I wonder??

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At close to two years old , he certainly has pulled his share of strings, good thing I am handy with a needle and thread.

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Well, it should go without saying, he is the mastermind of the moment and mastermind of all things love. You found me out, now if I could only find an app that translates dog woofs into English, it would save me a lot of time and biscuits.

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I've only got the Swedish version pal, sorry ;)

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Yes, putting in a request to Steve Job’s ghost—we need iDog and iCat please.

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Even Benny is blushing at this generous comment, thanks Lor! Tell Ranger that Benny merely shook his head at the folly of his scribbling companion bothering with all this ridiculous snow globery when there is perfectly adequate reality to make do with!

"he writes with the unique ability to never remain in the confines of just one box," this I really appreciate. I'm always trying to climb ladders out of boxes and there are so many snakes encouraging us to slide back into them, so I love the counter encouragement to keep on climbing. Thank you, Lor, (Benny sends warmest regards to his pen pal).

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no surprise at the thoughts and own revelations stirring because of the honesty here. So truly rich, this conversation..

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Jonathan is one of my favorite writers over here, so glad he’s on your radar too!

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It was so easy to talk to Kimberly, I could have gone on for ages :) So glad you enjoy this Patris, thanks.

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looking forward to doing a part 2 someday.

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Couldn't agree more.

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Listened to this rich and nourishing conversation on the Waterford coastline this morning. Bravo Jonathan!

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So glad you could join us in the sea spray!

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Great interview Kimberly. Really indepth discussion, which isn't easy. I will check out the rest of your work in the coming weeks.

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So in some way I too was wandering the coast of Waterford too! Nice. Thanks for taking us along, Síodhan :)

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Jonathan and Kimberly, what an absolute delight this conversation has been! Thank you, I think you know, without me blathering on, how I love you both, the two of you together I love even more, if indeed that's possible!

Jonathan, at the very beginning of this heavenly discussion you quote Eric's comment "There's this incredible relatable normalcy that pretends like it isn't teetering right on the edge of a mystical abyss." I'm just going to add my agreement here, plus, often, and I make no pretence, I fall in, you know, I know... but wait, I haven't finished because then you say "I'm trying to write these kind of little snow globes of entertainment..." and, as you also know from my own Sunstack bimblings, I want to be where snowflakes fall and so here I find myself in that wonderful, magical, liminal? yes liminal space, where nothing is quite clear until I've floated a while, joyfully playing in that little globe you so beautifully craft in every essay, with the snow!

And, the wisdom in this... "...but he kind of does live in sort of joyous now all the time," Benny I get you!

Ok so I'm a bit blissed out now... thank you both, truly, deeply, this was scrumptious as are both you! 💛

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Blissed out is good! And now I’m picturing you blissed out INSIDE one of Jonathan’s snow globes.

Beautifully stated Susie—falling into the liminal. That’s exactly where Jonathan’s prose takes us.

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I'm going to write a snow globe that's a little more blurry wit a little more depth of field just for you Susie. I know you'll love that one a little bit more :) I feel very honoured and quite blissed out myself with all this generosity. Now I've got to slide into a liminal space coz I'm dead on my feet! Thanks pal :)

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So much in this exchange! You guys rock.

From Canada to NZ to England to (probably lots more places in between) to Sweden... I'm sure living in such a wide breadth of places naturally informs some of the "universality" in your work, Jonathan. Probably helps with the "zoom lens" a bit as well, which is one of my favorite aspects of your writing. Going from up close everyday moments to the universality that pervades it all and back again, so seamlessly it's like a pulse. Connected story-pulses.

The music/musician aspect makes sense... knew I sensed a fellow music lover... can definitely hear that rhythm and cadence conducting your writing.

Kimberly at some point you were talking about "hypnosis and healing" with regards to Jonathan's work... I think you really hit home with that one, because not only is it his author's voice within his writing, it's his actual, PHYSICAL voice.

You have a real talent for hypnosis... hypnotizing a reader or a listener in such a way that they feel safe enough to bear witness to their own ghosts. I see and hear them in other people too... most of the time they aren't ready to be seen, and woe betide the messenger if they're called out. Veronika Bond refers to them as the creatures in the permafrost, or something along those lines.

I think about this too, maybe too often for my own good: "I find it incredibly difficult to understand who my children actually think I am, or who my wife actually thinks I am, because she sees me and I have this sort of identity that lives inside of their heads only."

That's probably enough from me for now...Oh and somewhere you commented you have a list of your favorite Substacks - would love to check that out sometime!

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Gee Eric, another great comment. Yes, there have been places in between, and they've informed me on some level that most differences are merely (and wonderfully) decorative on the whole, and it is "the whole" that I find more interesting, those things that bridge rather than wall people. Of course I'm swimming against the tide at the moment, but I'm getting used to that after so long :)

There are people who don't see the ghosts, but there are also those that do, and I'm not surprised you are one of them Eric, especially (but not only) because of The Ring.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words and reading and getting what I'm putting so much effort into saying. Cheers :)

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Such a strange head scratcher irony that orienting ourselves towards what we have in common means swimming against the tide…

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Eric you have this incredible way of distilling the essence of an idea into a few concise, memorable words: “Going from up close everyday moments to the universality that pervades it all and back again, so seamlessly it's like a pulse. Connected story-pulses.” Connected story pulses! I love this! And maybe part of what you also go on to say about the hypnotic quality of Jonathan’s voice (both author and physical.) Lulling us into deeper states where the unconscious can surface and have a word or two with us.:)

Thanks for such a thoughtful comment here. Loving this post-interview dialog with Jonathan’s fans.

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Indeed it’s great to be a fan. :)

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What a truly sublime discussion between the two of you. Everything you said resonated, Jonathan. Your honesty and openness and admittance of not having the answers ... yes, yes, yes.

It was really great to hear you reading some of your work. My apologies for not (yet) being a subscriber (I've been on a sort of saturation point with my Substack inbox for a while, unfortunately), but this is a wonderful introduction to your writing.

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Thanks so much Nathan, that's so kind. I'm always a little suspicious of anyone bearing The Answer. Always seems like they don't really understand The Problem :)

And re: Sustack, it is a cornucopia of delights where it's impossible to find/read everything. I have the same trouble, but I'm going to subscribe to your stack and make time...ahhhhh time!

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Well that’s just lovely, Jonathan. Thank you. Seeing as we’ve made our understanding of the (aptly stated) cornucopia clear, I shall do the same in return. ;)

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Ahhh! This makes me so happy! You two will not be disappointed.

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Hello Jonathan and Kimberly, some of my favs. Great interview, to both of you. thanks

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Well hello there Weston! Glad you could join us!

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Being a good interviewer is a real skill and talent, good job.

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Hope you noticed my name dropping Wes ;)

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I did and as a result of that interview was today’s post dedicated to you.

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Ha! I like this merry-go-round of dedications and mentions! Thanks Wes, I’m off to read it now :)

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'And what we really are is just awareness and possibly love, right?' Very nice.

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MY FAVORITE TAKEAWAY. 🙏

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It's simple but it works for me :)

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Yes, I agree. Oddly, I've just written about this myself in the middle of my own latest Substack post - AND used a sea image, though differently.

Wouldn't the world be so different if we could manage to live by this?

Thank you.

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The sea is such a powerful image I think. And yes, escaping the constraints and shackles that dissuade a feeling of shared awareness would be...wonderful :)

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I'm completely blown away by this conversation, Kimberly and Jonathan. I've not felt this inspired in months. There are so many poems and prose I've been sitting on that after listening to this piece I feel compelled to share. It also inspired so many thoughts and ideas that I had to give up on trying to track them and just listen knowing that I'm going to be coming back to this conversation many times in the coming months. Thank you for this. Here's to seeding some hope in the dark times ahead. Oh, and, while I don't want to give away the name of "The Dog", I have to tell you it put a huge smile on my face to finally know him.

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Gosh, what a heartwarming response. And to hear how Jonathan’s sharing inspired you to bring sone of your creations into the light. I can’t wait to read them!

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Neither can I :)

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One is coming soon. I have to say, I know you as a great writer, but you’re also an incredible interviewer. I felt like I was eavesdropping on a relaxed conversation between two friends, and you asked the most insightful and thoughtful questions. I really loved the whole piece and will definitely be watching it again. You both inspired me deeply, so thank you.

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Completely agree. Kimberly's generous, super-intelligent nature and the fact that she's dared to face so many things means she is perfect at creating a safe and secure space to converse and feel seen.

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Awwww, thank you Troy. I do love connecting with all the brilliant minds over here. Who knew living in the middle of rural nowhere I would be chatting with and learning from individuals all over the world!

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He he, you can take that blade of straw out of your mouth there Kimberly, you're not fooling anyone ;)

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Haha! Like that visual.:)

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Shortly after writing beginning The Crow, I read your wonderful piece "Fallen Giants", and have been reading you ever since, Troy, and I know you've been reading my writing too, and it has been and continues to be a real pleasure.

I was talking today to Fotini (Tomasikaki) and Síodhna (The Sea In Me) about community and the meaning of such here on Substack, and although we came to no conclusion, we agreed that the process of fellowship and shared engagement was the purpose in some way. So thanks pal, for being part of that and inspiring me and being inspired :) I look forward to reading your writing when it comes.

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This community has really been something special. While listening to the interview I was reminded of how many great stories you have written and wondered, "how do we get Jonathan to publish a short story collection?" I feel like I need your book on my shelf alongside Richard Powers, Peter Matthiessen, and Mary Oliver.

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I've had the same thought, so keep a space in your bookshelf coz I'm trying to write a novella right now :)

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YES!!! This is music to my ears!

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It’s got your name on it!

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I second this Troy! I want a collection sitting on my favorite bookshelf, pieces to return to again and again for reflection and inspiration.

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Wonderful conversation, very privileged to listen.

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Thanks mate :)

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Thank you both for this immersive conversation about writing, life, the world all captured in a snow globe (love that metaphor!)

To your question about genres of writing ~ I just want to mention that it's different in the English publishing-world from the German book scene (or it used to be, I think it's getting more anglicised now too, unfortunately) The genres have been created for the marketing. No other reason. To market more books more easily to more specific reader groups. It's really very annoying for writers who don't write for specific prepackaging of their work...

So to create your own new genre (memoiriction?) is a really a good solution. I've been thinking along those lines too...

Two of my favourite substack writers in a fireside conversation. 🔥🙏 💕 a real treat

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Yep, the market always infiltrating where it's not helpful nor welcome. Here in Sweden some small bookshops that are run by literary book lovers and dedicated readers kinda people and they are places that sometimes arrange books according to their own idiosyncratic genres. There's probably the same in the US other than UK too. But the mainstream book sellers are certainly marketing driven. In the smaller places (one near me) you can literally ask to be made to feel uncomfortable, or hopeful, or melancholy, or whatever and they'll suggest things that bring about such emotional responses regardless of so-called genre. The lady is wonderful and very old too, so I'm not sure how long that'll go on for...

Thanks so much for the kind words too :)

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Memoiriction! I love this Veronika!

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It was Jonathan who suggested this! (referring to his own genre) 😉

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Oh! Haha! I have the memory of a goldfish.

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Many thanks to you both for a deeply thoughtful conversation. I especially loved what you said about our external identities, in other's heads, being where love resides, in a way. What an interesting idea. I also love your emphasis on mutuality. I live on a community, and see that thinking for the whole does not come naturally to most in our society. It takes practice, awareness, practice, awareness, self reflection, practice...

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I so agree with you Harriet, practice seems to be something that gets so compartmentalised into specific social genres and less emphasis in urban consumer society is placed on the practice of just sharing, or obligation over rights, or mutual support. That which we have stripped away seems so valuable to me.

Thanks for your thoughtful comment :)

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Great observation Harriet. I agree, Jonathan’s willingness to blur the lines of identity and fathom a much more symbiotic/relational existence is a thread woven through much of his writing and is so needed in our world right now.

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A walk in the forest in the company of Crow, Dog & Wordsmith never fails to open up your heart to the world.

Thank you Kimberly for reminding us that 'we are in this together.'

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It's a pleasure writing for a writer like you, Fotini. The Dog and the crows are quite happy reading Tomasikaki and ignoring my blathering :)

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Their loss :)

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My pleasure Fotini. Joining you in those woods.:)

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So wonderful to meet the human behind the writing, Jonathan. Kimberly, you have such a gentle but sure way of getting right to the essence of a person and what matters to them--identity, purpose, creative process, Benny! Great conversation--thank you both!

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I think Benny should be at the start of that list ;)

Thanks so much Ann, I'm so grateful for your reading and finding something in my writing :)

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Thank you Ann, speaking to the heart of a person/animal/even-my-house-plants! has always been good for my soul. I sometimes feel envious of people who can small talk though!

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