"To be stuck, for as far back as I can remember, has been my greatest fear... Every decision I’ve made, be it career or relational, to stay or to go, to save or to spend, has been in the name of freedom, mine or theirs, which is, for me, movement, which is, for me, love.”
Kim! What a privilege and honor to do this interview with you and share it with our dear readers and friends and fellow writers. Thank you for the gift of your attention and ability to see to the heart of those whose works you delve into. Thank you for this! 🥰💕
I feel like this was just the first of many conversations Holly. You are such a light and I treasure knowing and reading you. Next time, let’s meet over tea in real life!
I do not claim to be a sensei of chronic pain and illness, but if my life experience quantified by many years of ‘forever being a student ‘, I have received every level of diploma from kindergarten on up. I guess you could say I am presently working on my second , or maybe fourth Doctorate in Uncooperative Bodies , um , Non-compliant Body/Mind Management ? I once read an add supported by the Dairy industry, new research proclaiming the benefits of low fat chocolate milk as a post recovery drink for endurance athletes;
”Chocolate milk- built on determination” . Well, I cut that add out of the magazine, laminated it, and hung it on my fridge, where it still remains today. This is me, exactly.
I have barely crawled through some dark tunnels over the years, and thankfully and fortunately, I am back out there doing what I love. And some of those days, I am out there by sheer determination. Others, I just have to say “I’m out”( meaning , unable). I very much enjoyed this conversation between the two of you. It is strange, Holly, in some ways, I am totally opposite of you. My home is part definition and a reflection of me. My safety net, what I choose to surround myself with visually, inside and outside, of course my soulmate , and my dog. Happy, sad, healthy ,or not , my all encompassing comfort zone. On the flip side, we are so very similar. ‘Built on Determination’. Let’s just say I am very happy to share my chocolate milk with you any time. You too, Kimberly.
Lor you are the sweetest, most delicious chocolate milk and owed to, in part, that undying determination of yours. I love that you laminated it! I now will replace my daily visions of you in the snowy wilderness with this scene: a pint of chocolate milk on skis, Ranger occasionally taking a moment to lap you up.
Bowing to yours and Holly’s determination married alongside grace. The two forever informing one another as you unfold your lives. So grateful to know you both. 🙏
Your fourth Doctorate in Uncooperative Bodies , um , Non-compliant Body/Mind Management!! Swoon. Lor, you are an absolute pleasure to engage with. Every time I see your name in a comment section--my own or anyone else's--I scroll to see what you have to say first. I'm in awe of your close reading, the gift your attention is, and the way you're able to riff off what someone's shared.
I would LOVE to share chocolate milk with both of you. And I am delighted for the braid of our similarities and differences and the way both of us have enabled us to connect and engage.
Thank you for reading/listening and thank you for sharing a bit of your own stuff with chronic pain and illness. I think you're a kindred soul in all the best ways. 🥰
My French vocabulary is pretty much nonexistent . Oui, merci, ferme la bouche ( from grade school), defense de fume, because it is written on the inside of the ski gondolas for our French Canadian visitors. As well as a few words I’ve learned from you, Susie. And now I have two more to add to my list, thank you 🙏.
I like that you use the word ,Stuff . Somehow it gathers all the details together into one suitcase 🧳. I have had ‘issues’ for so long, I don’t like to talk about me in that respect, unless in doing so, I can help someone else. Because we are so much more than our health conditions. If you don’t mind, Holly , I’m going to borrow that word and put it to good use the next time I am bombarded with questions about ‘my stuff’. Oh yes, it rolls off the tongue nicely.
Jeez, both of you ? I’m blushing over here.Truthfully , it is Ranger’s (my dog) birthday today , so he should be receiving all the compliments, but no chocolate milk for him.
Seriously, a heart warming reply to drift off to sweet dreams with, thank you.
So good to get to know you better, Holly! I love what you said about pain bringing about creative expansiveness. This has been my experience as well, with painful seasons often being my most creative.
Thank you, Natalie. I love that this has been your experience too. It feels so good to know I'm not alone in having pain be an opening to creativity and expansion. It feels like I'm tapping into something bigger than me, something shared. So thank you, Natalie, for reading/listening, and for saying so. ♥️
What an absolute treat this was to watch! I love putting faces to names, and both of your names and faces are so dear to me. Thank you for this whole conversation- Holly, I resonate so deeply with your need for un-stuckness, for freedom. This is my highest value as well and has been since childhood. I remember being repulsed by the idea of getting a job and owning a home. My fantasy was to sail from one end of the earth to the other, and then to do it again and again. I always wanted constant motion- I still do. What is this impulse for constantly changing horizons? Either way, thank you for being such a mirror. And Kimberly, your questions were spot on- you kept asking everything I wanted to know! So much love to both of you. xoxo
This is so cool Kendall, I’m not surprised you feel a kindred connection with Holly! My two freedom-seekers! I can relate to it in as much as I was OBSESSED with “inner freedom” for a good chunk of my twenties. Binging on Krishnamurti, Pema Chodrin, even got into The Forum for a while. I wanted to break free of all the conditions I (and society) had put on me. I’m glad I finally loosened my grip on that, it was a lot of navel-gazing for a young woman who needed more horizon gazing!
Well said! I can so imagine you having gone through a stage of obsession with inner freedom. Both it and the loosening of the grip seem to have served you perfectly.
The impulse for inner (and outer) freedom is so good, but you’re right that anything taken too far can be a tight grip that needs to be loosened. I feel this deeply. I’m here for both the navel and the horizon gazing!
Your name and face is dear to both of us as well. I’ve watched Kim champion your work in Notes and comments and thought how the three of us are kindred spirits and how wonderful that we both found you when you started posting here.
Yes, I feel in you and your writing that resonant desire for changing horizons and movement. It’s a wonderful impulse, and I cherish it in myself and others.
Thank you for listening! And yes, Kim is a fantastic interviewer.
That you both champion my work is one of the greatest gifts in the world- truly. I also believe we're kindred spirits- it's like you talked about in this interview, there's a searing truth-telling among writers, especially those of us dipping into memoir, that makes this abundantly clear. We invite each other into our deepest selves, and sometimes you just immediately see your own reflection there. (Or, conversely, sometimes you dive in and sort of furrow your brow and think, "huh... that is REALLY not how I experience the world. 😅)
Thank you for being people who see the world in beautiful, terrible fractals and are brave enough to tell the whole messy truth of it. ❤
I so resonate with the pleasures of movement, moving, roads, journeys...I was blessed by a Mayan shamanic teacher, who taught me the Mayan astrological symbol for this energy. The nawale (symbol) "EE" means "road, path or destiny."
I bemoaned the fact that I could never embrace a singular spiritual path, the way yogis pursue Hinduism, etc. My teacher, Shuni said, "Of course you can't! That's not your job. Your job is to be on the spiritual path, to explore each of the pathways, observe them all and discover what they have in common." A beautiful, affirming reflection of this calling.
What a fantastic, fascinating interview with Holly! I immediately clicked over (once I finished the interview, of course) to the six chapters and cannot wait to read them. I can't wait for the book and yours too, Kimberly. This interview reshaped my thinking...once again. Thank you!
Thank you, thank you, Linda. What a joy to share this space with Kimberly and then with other brilliant minds I've connected with across Substack, like you, Linda. And what a delightful compliment to imagine our conversation reshaping. ♥️
In honor of this wonderful interview, I'm going to post chapter 7 one Sunday before the end of this month. It'll involve New Jersey and a nudist gathering. ;)
Hehe! Right?! It’s a fun, sweet chapter. Now looking for good images to go with it.
The trek this chapter comes from (up the US East Coast) took place back before smartphones, and I was using a film camera (if memory serves), which was stolen at any rate. So now actual photos survived that trip unfortunately.
That's a shame, Holly. I LOVE these types of adventure books. Years ago I fell in love with "Walk Across America," and the sequels. A wild one is "A Marriage Sabbatical," by Sabina Shalom. Also, "The Dove," comes to mind, and of course, "Wild," by Cheryl Strayed. I've always been very interested in the east coast and have never explored it so I am going to explore it with you! I'm so excited to continue to read yours.
You are such an engaged, generous reader and listener Linda. I’m excited for you to start Holly’s memoir. (And even more excited to read the entire thing when it’s done!) ❤️
I knew I needed to make time for this! It's been staring at me from the window of the inbox, occasionally waving flashlights to be sure I didn't forget about it.
Kimberly & Holly, the warm energy that flowed between you was a pleasure to experience, and I'm sure you won't mind knowing that I syphoned a bit of it off for myself. Mmmm! Thank you, Kimberly, for asking the right questions. Thank you, Holly, for offering your true self in reply.
I think the takeaway, for me, is to soak up the opportunities we have to embrace what the world is teaching us. Holly, when you said you usually start by describing what you see around you, it's that! Plus that very evident gratitude you convey with the words you choose.
And speaking of embracing, this interview felt like a big hug. Nicely done, you two!
Wow, I’m grinning from ear to ear. For a conversation to feel like a hug, good enough to siphon off some of the energy yourself, now that’s special. Thank you Elizabeth. And you’re so right about Holly’s words, they shine—founded in an unconditional gratitude for all life.
Omg, I love you two so damn much! This was fantastic. I don’t like to pick favourites, but this is definitely one of my favourite interviews you’ve done Kimberly.
The way you two talked about your experiences with chronic pain and finding the gift in it — had me nodding my head along like an overzealous bobble head.
And I soooooo appreciate and marvel at your yearning for movement and freedom, Holly. That resonated with me a lot. And I’m sure you’ve both already heard this, but when I was going through my chronic pain saga, I remember being so happy to hear the phrase “motion is lotion”.
Also, I have to say the questions you asked in response to Holly’s answers were great, Kimberly. They really helped the conversation seamlessly flow from one spot to the next.
This was just magic all round.
And finally, this Curious Platypus feels obliged to highlight a line he loved —
“I think if you’re certain, there’s less room for curiosity” — yes, Holly!
Awww, Michael, I’m thrilled you had a chance to listen to this one. I thought about you quite a bit when we got into Holly’s experiences of pain. And a nod to her quote—it sort of perfectly summarizes YOUR healing saga: the certainty of your pain couldn’t crack open, loosen its grip on you, until you became curious and present with it. Am I right?
Ohhh and P.S — I was also inspired to change my profile pic to a picture of me (and my cat) thanks to what you said in this interview about knowing people so intimately on Substack and not even knowing what some of us look like. :)
I was thrilled I got to listen! I found myself wanting to jump into you two’s conversation and add my own two cents simply because of how much I related to it all.
Yes, wonderfully said, Kimberly. You are totally right! For such a long time I completely resisted the pain, wanted to escape it, to ‘fix’ it, and it wasn’t until I opened myself up to it and the lessons it had to offer that things started to change.
Also, I know you will, but please keep up all your great work with the interviews, the unfixed docs, and your own writing — it really is so valuable to people. :)
And I too thought of you and your experience in this context. I didn’t talk about it in the interview, but I was ignoring the pain for a while up to the point that I couldn’t—just treating it like an annoyance I could medicate away.
I think your love of skateboarding is akin to my yearning for freedom and movement and it’s one of the many reasons we connect.
And yes, motion is lotion is something my PT says. I feel fortunate that, with AS, outside of overdoing it, movement is a key, not to fixing it but to living with it well.
Ahh yes, ignoring the pain until you couldn’t anymore—how silly we were haha.
And yes, definitely, I see skateboarding as a form of freedom (and movement) so at its core, I feel our yearnings are very similar—they just manifest in different ways.
Partway through listening, but just pausing to say what a beautiful, honest and open discussion between the two of you. I've said it before, but you have such talent in creating these open spaces for discussion, Kimberly.
Holly, it's lovely hearing your voice and getting to know you. I'm sorry to hear of the AS diagnosis, I hope you're getting the help you need and your immune system backs off to let you heal.
Yes, yes! I couldn’t agree more. Kimberly’s talent for creating a gorgeous container where the person she’s talking to feels free to be their best, wisest self is just outstanding, something I aspire to.
Thank you for listening, Nathan. I enjoyed your conversation with her too. Isn’t it a delight to see and hear the people whose words and wisdom we’ve fallen for through these conversations?!
And thanks for your kind words. It’s a trek, but there are lessons and gifts everywhere too. :)
From the science side, there’s lots of research going into AS (and many other autoimmune diseases), so I hope some gifts from those endeavours find their way to you.
A colleague of mine used to work on it, actually. He was looking at the molecular determinants and the high association for if your body expresses a specific human leukocyte antigen (we all express these, they're what help T cells do their job, but certain variants are associated with certain autoimmune diseases, and for AS there's a strong association with certain HLA-B27 alleles).
Thanks friend, it’s funny how skills can grow from deficits. I wasn’t a very verbal child so listening was my MO. When people would ask me questions, I’d be like, “I don’t know, what do YOU think?” It took some time to turn this curiosity inward.:)
I love the way you gently encourage Holly to share more of her vision with all of us. I am so delighted to ‘meet’ another brave person on the journey, who is living as fully as she can.
Isn't Kim just an absolutely fantastic interviewer?! I'm impressed with her ability to see people in their words--to read closely and understand deeply and then convey all of it in convo. What a treat!
“Fully” and then some.:) Meeting women that question conditioning and make their own rules in the name of freedom and love are the ones I’ll follow to the very end.
Dear Holly and Kimberly, I literally don't know where to start! This was such a gorgeous conversation from two ladies I love - I could have listened all day, I feel like I want to quote almost the entire conversation. Thank you so much.
Holly your nomadic lifestyle dreamed of from a young age and realised with elegance, (I tried too - there is little elegance in being a hippy though...) the stepping aside from the norm, believing in yourself despite, as Lor so brilliantly says, non-compliant body/mind management (Yup, I always nip and read Lor's comments first too) and still finding a way to be curious, to notice the utter beauty that you see and hear, accepting that whilst the physical is not always easy, turning to the written word which you do with such a lightness of heart, you make me want to sing and dance. Saying, "uncertainty is a requirement of hope. Because if you're certain, what are you hoping for?"I love that... I love it all!
Susie! What a gift to have found friends like you and Kimberly her. I know we've talked about this aspect of Substack and the connections formed via this platform before, but I am constantly lifted by knowing this network of kindness and curiosity and wisdom exists. It absolutely keeps me believing / hoping there are solutions to the terribly difficult challenges our society and world face right now and that there are enough people working toward them.
Thank you ever so much for listening to this conversation and adding to it.
As for the elegance, well, that's subjective. You should see some of my "outfits" when I'm just me and Ruby in the wild. And that old girl, with her heft and banged-up bits and refusal to show me her mileage anymore and her leaking from so many parts, well, she has her own brand of elegance for sure!
Delightful conversation by turns intimate, funny and philosophical. i paused it midway to rent "Nomadland" and thank you both for that and after read the essay of Holly's you referenced about the cactus and the sword and i know i had read some of her previous writing on here for a good reason. You both share such a skill with communicating ideas and emotions that are not easily excavated without searching thoughtful poetic prose. She modestly glosses over the hard work it must take for her or any to embrace freedom on her own terms (that scene from the movie with the joint pound buckets as toilets was all too familiar here... ha) and her inclination to talk with anybody everybody, finding joy in the present and not judge but grow towards the light on her own terms is inspirational .... as well your rapidly blinking preternatural attentive eyelids (:~~ (just went with that word, have no idea what it means)
Intimate, funny, and philosophical--swoon. What a great compliment. Thank you. (Blinks preternaturally). 🤣
Isn't Nomadland fantastic?! I just love Francis McDormand!
And thank you for commenting on the hard work it has indeed taken to embrace freedom on my own terms, on various levels. It's true. It's certainly been hard won and is a work in progress.
it is and thanks to you paid special attention to Bob...Frances was so amazing in Olive Kittredge (omg and Bill Murray) and i had to see it after the book which reminded me of authentic working class protaganists of the sort Andre Dubus Sr. used to write about...that said Nomadland loomed as huge gap in my experience 😵
Bob is an absolute character and good good human in real life. I only interacted with him very briefly, and it was clear he cares deeply and is just super real.
So glad we pointed you to Nomadland.
And now you’ve pointed me to Olive Kittredge. So thank you.
“Growing toward the light on her own terms.” That’s such a beautiful way to say it. (I reply with, yes, PRETERNATURALLY blinking eyelids.) 😂 My husband and I were literally JUST talking about my blinky-ness yesterday! I don’t know why I do it!
Right?! I love that phrase "growing toward the light on her own terms." To us all doing that more fully and clearly. Beautifully worded. Thank you, Appleton.
You too, Kim?! Hahah. To our preternatural blinking. ;)
Holly and Kimberly, you were my breakfast friends today, turning cereal and soggy blueberries into a bowlful of hope, resilience and generosity. Thank you for the blessing.
Thanks you so much Holly and Kimberly, I really enjoyed this. I relate to so much that you are speaking to. Trying to move away and release myself from the mental constraints of society. I really understand actively escaping expectations and being always open to new ideas (as long as they are about a kinder, better world somehow) and being curious.
And I totally love the way you weave themes together in your essays, Holly. Such a pleasure to see you both and thank you so much for an amazing interview with a rich and fascinating person, Kimberly.
Thank you, Jonathan! I truly enjoyed this experience. You know. You had a wonderful interview with Kimberly too. Isn't she amazing and wise and such an attentive reader and listener and curious soul?
To us all releasing ourselves in our own times and our own ways to whatever constraints are not serving us well. And to a kinder, better world and more curiosity.
I'm grateful to have connected with both of you kind, wonderfully evolving people.
She is! Listening and paying attention and caring are rare commodities in this race toward madness, and Kimberly does all of it. A real pleasure to fall into the orbit really.
I really enjoyed your whole interview, Holly. It's such a relief I think, when people forge their own path and wander off from the numbery of the usual. It was a pleasure to see and to read your writing, so thanks. Great to have connected with you both :)
Can you both please speak with my kitty Nova and tell her your feelings about me? She sleeps on Dave every single night and I’m beginning to get a complex. 😂
“Always open to new ideas (as long as they are about a kinder, better world.)” I love that qualification and filter Jonathan. We are overloaded with information and ideas these days, we have to get very mindful about what’s going in. I’m glad these interviews make the cut!
Kim! What a privilege and honor to do this interview with you and share it with our dear readers and friends and fellow writers. Thank you for the gift of your attention and ability to see to the heart of those whose works you delve into. Thank you for this! 🥰💕
I feel like this was just the first of many conversations Holly. You are such a light and I treasure knowing and reading you. Next time, let’s meet over tea in real life!
Absolutely! May be coming your way soon!!
I do not claim to be a sensei of chronic pain and illness, but if my life experience quantified by many years of ‘forever being a student ‘, I have received every level of diploma from kindergarten on up. I guess you could say I am presently working on my second , or maybe fourth Doctorate in Uncooperative Bodies , um , Non-compliant Body/Mind Management ? I once read an add supported by the Dairy industry, new research proclaiming the benefits of low fat chocolate milk as a post recovery drink for endurance athletes;
”Chocolate milk- built on determination” . Well, I cut that add out of the magazine, laminated it, and hung it on my fridge, where it still remains today. This is me, exactly.
I have barely crawled through some dark tunnels over the years, and thankfully and fortunately, I am back out there doing what I love. And some of those days, I am out there by sheer determination. Others, I just have to say “I’m out”( meaning , unable). I very much enjoyed this conversation between the two of you. It is strange, Holly, in some ways, I am totally opposite of you. My home is part definition and a reflection of me. My safety net, what I choose to surround myself with visually, inside and outside, of course my soulmate , and my dog. Happy, sad, healthy ,or not , my all encompassing comfort zone. On the flip side, we are so very similar. ‘Built on Determination’. Let’s just say I am very happy to share my chocolate milk with you any time. You too, Kimberly.
Lor you are the sweetest, most delicious chocolate milk and owed to, in part, that undying determination of yours. I love that you laminated it! I now will replace my daily visions of you in the snowy wilderness with this scene: a pint of chocolate milk on skis, Ranger occasionally taking a moment to lap you up.
Bowing to yours and Holly’s determination married alongside grace. The two forever informing one another as you unfold your lives. So grateful to know you both. 🙏
Awww! What a perfect response and vision, which I now share.
To our continued sharing in the unfolding of our lives and our determination and our sweet treats.
Your fourth Doctorate in Uncooperative Bodies , um , Non-compliant Body/Mind Management!! Swoon. Lor, you are an absolute pleasure to engage with. Every time I see your name in a comment section--my own or anyone else's--I scroll to see what you have to say first. I'm in awe of your close reading, the gift your attention is, and the way you're able to riff off what someone's shared.
I would LOVE to share chocolate milk with both of you. And I am delighted for the braid of our similarities and differences and the way both of us have enabled us to connect and engage.
Thank you for reading/listening and thank you for sharing a bit of your own stuff with chronic pain and illness. I think you're a kindred soul in all the best ways. 🥰
I first scroll to Lor’s comments too!
Moi aussi Kimberly!
My French vocabulary is pretty much nonexistent . Oui, merci, ferme la bouche ( from grade school), defense de fume, because it is written on the inside of the ski gondolas for our French Canadian visitors. As well as a few words I’ve learned from you, Susie. And now I have two more to add to my list, thank you 🙏.
I like that you use the word ,Stuff . Somehow it gathers all the details together into one suitcase 🧳. I have had ‘issues’ for so long, I don’t like to talk about me in that respect, unless in doing so, I can help someone else. Because we are so much more than our health conditions. If you don’t mind, Holly , I’m going to borrow that word and put it to good use the next time I am bombarded with questions about ‘my stuff’. Oh yes, it rolls off the tongue nicely.
Jeez, both of you ? I’m blushing over here.Truthfully , it is Ranger’s (my dog) birthday today , so he should be receiving all the compliments, but no chocolate milk for him.
Seriously, a heart warming reply to drift off to sweet dreams with, thank you.
What?! Happy happy birthday, Ranger dear. You're the bestest boy ever!! 🎁🦴
We call that his black jellybean nose. Hmm, I think Ranger’s ever growing fan club has a new member.
That is exactly what we tell him, how did you know?
😊🥇🐕
I mean look at that nose!
So good to get to know you better, Holly! I love what you said about pain bringing about creative expansiveness. This has been my experience as well, with painful seasons often being my most creative.
I agree Natalie! In the stripping away of distractions and habits, our creative self has time and space to breathe.
It is that stripping away, isn't it? ♥️♥️♥️
Thank you, Natalie. I love that this has been your experience too. It feels so good to know I'm not alone in having pain be an opening to creativity and expansion. It feels like I'm tapping into something bigger than me, something shared. So thank you, Natalie, for reading/listening, and for saying so. ♥️
What an absolute treat this was to watch! I love putting faces to names, and both of your names and faces are so dear to me. Thank you for this whole conversation- Holly, I resonate so deeply with your need for un-stuckness, for freedom. This is my highest value as well and has been since childhood. I remember being repulsed by the idea of getting a job and owning a home. My fantasy was to sail from one end of the earth to the other, and then to do it again and again. I always wanted constant motion- I still do. What is this impulse for constantly changing horizons? Either way, thank you for being such a mirror. And Kimberly, your questions were spot on- you kept asking everything I wanted to know! So much love to both of you. xoxo
This is so cool Kendall, I’m not surprised you feel a kindred connection with Holly! My two freedom-seekers! I can relate to it in as much as I was OBSESSED with “inner freedom” for a good chunk of my twenties. Binging on Krishnamurti, Pema Chodrin, even got into The Forum for a while. I wanted to break free of all the conditions I (and society) had put on me. I’m glad I finally loosened my grip on that, it was a lot of navel-gazing for a young woman who needed more horizon gazing!
Well said! I can so imagine you having gone through a stage of obsession with inner freedom. Both it and the loosening of the grip seem to have served you perfectly.
The impulse for inner (and outer) freedom is so good, but you’re right that anything taken too far can be a tight grip that needs to be loosened. I feel this deeply. I’m here for both the navel and the horizon gazing!
Me too!
Your name and face is dear to both of us as well. I’ve watched Kim champion your work in Notes and comments and thought how the three of us are kindred spirits and how wonderful that we both found you when you started posting here.
Yes, I feel in you and your writing that resonant desire for changing horizons and movement. It’s a wonderful impulse, and I cherish it in myself and others.
Thank you for listening! And yes, Kim is a fantastic interviewer.
That you both champion my work is one of the greatest gifts in the world- truly. I also believe we're kindred spirits- it's like you talked about in this interview, there's a searing truth-telling among writers, especially those of us dipping into memoir, that makes this abundantly clear. We invite each other into our deepest selves, and sometimes you just immediately see your own reflection there. (Or, conversely, sometimes you dive in and sort of furrow your brow and think, "huh... that is REALLY not how I experience the world. 😅)
Thank you for being people who see the world in beautiful, terrible fractals and are brave enough to tell the whole messy truth of it. ❤
“Beautiful, terrible fractals”!!!! ♥️
New memoir title perhaps?? ❤️
Oh!
I so resonate with the pleasures of movement, moving, roads, journeys...I was blessed by a Mayan shamanic teacher, who taught me the Mayan astrological symbol for this energy. The nawale (symbol) "EE" means "road, path or destiny."
I bemoaned the fact that I could never embrace a singular spiritual path, the way yogis pursue Hinduism, etc. My teacher, Shuni said, "Of course you can't! That's not your job. Your job is to be on the spiritual path, to explore each of the pathways, observe them all and discover what they have in common." A beautiful, affirming reflection of this calling.
Here's more info if you're curious, fellow wanderers! https://mayanday.com/ee-path-destiny/
What a fantastic, fascinating interview with Holly! I immediately clicked over (once I finished the interview, of course) to the six chapters and cannot wait to read them. I can't wait for the book and yours too, Kimberly. This interview reshaped my thinking...once again. Thank you!
Thank you, thank you, Linda. What a joy to share this space with Kimberly and then with other brilliant minds I've connected with across Substack, like you, Linda. And what a delightful compliment to imagine our conversation reshaping. ♥️
In honor of this wonderful interview, I'm going to post chapter 7 one Sunday before the end of this month. It'll involve New Jersey and a nudist gathering. ;)
What a teaser! LOL. I’m excited to read it, Holly!
Hehe! Right?! It’s a fun, sweet chapter. Now looking for good images to go with it.
The trek this chapter comes from (up the US East Coast) took place back before smartphones, and I was using a film camera (if memory serves), which was stolen at any rate. So now actual photos survived that trip unfortunately.
That's a shame, Holly. I LOVE these types of adventure books. Years ago I fell in love with "Walk Across America," and the sequels. A wild one is "A Marriage Sabbatical," by Sabina Shalom. Also, "The Dove," comes to mind, and of course, "Wild," by Cheryl Strayed. I've always been very interested in the east coast and have never explored it so I am going to explore it with you! I'm so excited to continue to read yours.
♥️♥️♥️
You are such an engaged, generous reader and listener Linda. I’m excited for you to start Holly’s memoir. (And even more excited to read the entire thing when it’s done!) ❤️
🥰
I’m excited too!
great conversation between two fascinating people, thanks for this!
Awwww! Tina, what a pleasure to have you "join" us. Thank you. ♥️♥️♥️
Thank you for listening Tina! 🙏
Loved this - thank you both for sharing this conversation. 💙❤️💜
Love you back Troy.❤️
What Kim said! You are a gem, Mr. Troy Ford. 😄
I knew I needed to make time for this! It's been staring at me from the window of the inbox, occasionally waving flashlights to be sure I didn't forget about it.
Kimberly & Holly, the warm energy that flowed between you was a pleasure to experience, and I'm sure you won't mind knowing that I syphoned a bit of it off for myself. Mmmm! Thank you, Kimberly, for asking the right questions. Thank you, Holly, for offering your true self in reply.
I think the takeaway, for me, is to soak up the opportunities we have to embrace what the world is teaching us. Holly, when you said you usually start by describing what you see around you, it's that! Plus that very evident gratitude you convey with the words you choose.
And speaking of embracing, this interview felt like a big hug. Nicely done, you two!
Wow, I’m grinning from ear to ear. For a conversation to feel like a hug, good enough to siphon off some of the energy yourself, now that’s special. Thank you Elizabeth. And you’re so right about Holly’s words, they shine—founded in an unconditional gratitude for all life.
Gah!! I think the conversation feeling like a big hug and boosting warm energy is the best compliment we could get.
I’m ridiculously grateful for both of you.
Omg, I love you two so damn much! This was fantastic. I don’t like to pick favourites, but this is definitely one of my favourite interviews you’ve done Kimberly.
The way you two talked about your experiences with chronic pain and finding the gift in it — had me nodding my head along like an overzealous bobble head.
And I soooooo appreciate and marvel at your yearning for movement and freedom, Holly. That resonated with me a lot. And I’m sure you’ve both already heard this, but when I was going through my chronic pain saga, I remember being so happy to hear the phrase “motion is lotion”.
Also, I have to say the questions you asked in response to Holly’s answers were great, Kimberly. They really helped the conversation seamlessly flow from one spot to the next.
This was just magic all round.
And finally, this Curious Platypus feels obliged to highlight a line he loved —
“I think if you’re certain, there’s less room for curiosity” — yes, Holly!
Thanks you two, great stuff :)
Awww, Michael, I’m thrilled you had a chance to listen to this one. I thought about you quite a bit when we got into Holly’s experiences of pain. And a nod to her quote—it sort of perfectly summarizes YOUR healing saga: the certainty of your pain couldn’t crack open, loosen its grip on you, until you became curious and present with it. Am I right?
Ohhh and P.S — I was also inspired to change my profile pic to a picture of me (and my cat) thanks to what you said in this interview about knowing people so intimately on Substack and not even knowing what some of us look like. :)
I love it! Great photo.
I was thrilled I got to listen! I found myself wanting to jump into you two’s conversation and add my own two cents simply because of how much I related to it all.
Yes, wonderfully said, Kimberly. You are totally right! For such a long time I completely resisted the pain, wanted to escape it, to ‘fix’ it, and it wasn’t until I opened myself up to it and the lessons it had to offer that things started to change.
Also, I know you will, but please keep up all your great work with the interviews, the unfixed docs, and your own writing — it really is so valuable to people. :)
Oh what a joy that would be—to be in conversation with you too!
And I couldn’t agree more. Kimberly’s Unfixed work is invaluable!
Michael, the feeling is 100 percent mutual!!
And I too thought of you and your experience in this context. I didn’t talk about it in the interview, but I was ignoring the pain for a while up to the point that I couldn’t—just treating it like an annoyance I could medicate away.
I think your love of skateboarding is akin to my yearning for freedom and movement and it’s one of the many reasons we connect.
And yes, motion is lotion is something my PT says. I feel fortunate that, with AS, outside of overdoing it, movement is a key, not to fixing it but to living with it well.
Thank you for listening!
Ahh yes, ignoring the pain until you couldn’t anymore—how silly we were haha.
And yes, definitely, I see skateboarding as a form of freedom (and movement) so at its core, I feel our yearnings are very similar—they just manifest in different ways.
Thanks Holly! :)
Partway through listening, but just pausing to say what a beautiful, honest and open discussion between the two of you. I've said it before, but you have such talent in creating these open spaces for discussion, Kimberly.
Holly, it's lovely hearing your voice and getting to know you. I'm sorry to hear of the AS diagnosis, I hope you're getting the help you need and your immune system backs off to let you heal.
Yes, yes! I couldn’t agree more. Kimberly’s talent for creating a gorgeous container where the person she’s talking to feels free to be their best, wisest self is just outstanding, something I aspire to.
Thank you for listening, Nathan. I enjoyed your conversation with her too. Isn’t it a delight to see and hear the people whose words and wisdom we’ve fallen for through these conversations?!
And thanks for your kind words. It’s a trek, but there are lessons and gifts everywhere too. :)
Such a delight!
From the science side, there’s lots of research going into AS (and many other autoimmune diseases), so I hope some gifts from those endeavours find their way to you.
Gosh, Nathan if you ever come across any of this newer research, please share with us!
A colleague of mine used to work on it, actually. He was looking at the molecular determinants and the high association for if your body expresses a specific human leukocyte antigen (we all express these, they're what help T cells do their job, but certain variants are associated with certain autoimmune diseases, and for AS there's a strong association with certain HLA-B27 alleles).
Thanks friend, it’s funny how skills can grow from deficits. I wasn’t a very verbal child so listening was my MO. When people would ask me questions, I’d be like, “I don’t know, what do YOU think?” It took some time to turn this curiosity inward.:)
Very much how I was, and possibly still am at times!!
Another interesting interview- thank you.
I love the way you gently encourage Holly to share more of her vision with all of us. I am so delighted to ‘meet’ another brave person on the journey, who is living as fully as she can.
Isn't Kim just an absolutely fantastic interviewer?! I'm impressed with her ability to see people in their words--to read closely and understand deeply and then convey all of it in convo. What a treat!
Thank you, Teyani for reading/listening.
Absolutely Holly! I hope that the new medicine continues to help, and that you’re able to go exploring again soon.
“Fully” and then some.:) Meeting women that question conditioning and make their own rules in the name of freedom and love are the ones I’ll follow to the very end.
Dear Holly and Kimberly, I literally don't know where to start! This was such a gorgeous conversation from two ladies I love - I could have listened all day, I feel like I want to quote almost the entire conversation. Thank you so much.
Holly your nomadic lifestyle dreamed of from a young age and realised with elegance, (I tried too - there is little elegance in being a hippy though...) the stepping aside from the norm, believing in yourself despite, as Lor so brilliantly says, non-compliant body/mind management (Yup, I always nip and read Lor's comments first too) and still finding a way to be curious, to notice the utter beauty that you see and hear, accepting that whilst the physical is not always easy, turning to the written word which you do with such a lightness of heart, you make me want to sing and dance. Saying, "uncertainty is a requirement of hope. Because if you're certain, what are you hoping for?"I love that... I love it all!
Thank you ♥️
Your heart overflows Susie! I’m singing and dancing in the light of your reflections. ❤️❤️❤️
Susie! What a gift to have found friends like you and Kimberly her. I know we've talked about this aspect of Substack and the connections formed via this platform before, but I am constantly lifted by knowing this network of kindness and curiosity and wisdom exists. It absolutely keeps me believing / hoping there are solutions to the terribly difficult challenges our society and world face right now and that there are enough people working toward them.
Thank you ever so much for listening to this conversation and adding to it.
As for the elegance, well, that's subjective. You should see some of my "outfits" when I'm just me and Ruby in the wild. And that old girl, with her heft and banged-up bits and refusal to show me her mileage anymore and her leaking from so many parts, well, she has her own brand of elegance for sure!
Thank you back. 🥰🥰🥰
If Ruby ever writes a book, I’m sure Empress would welcome her banged-up bits with open arms.:)
I’m only half joking as I think about what I just wrote. I would totally read a memoir by Ruby and her favorite side-kick Holly?!
Delightful conversation by turns intimate, funny and philosophical. i paused it midway to rent "Nomadland" and thank you both for that and after read the essay of Holly's you referenced about the cactus and the sword and i know i had read some of her previous writing on here for a good reason. You both share such a skill with communicating ideas and emotions that are not easily excavated without searching thoughtful poetic prose. She modestly glosses over the hard work it must take for her or any to embrace freedom on her own terms (that scene from the movie with the joint pound buckets as toilets was all too familiar here... ha) and her inclination to talk with anybody everybody, finding joy in the present and not judge but grow towards the light on her own terms is inspirational .... as well your rapidly blinking preternatural attentive eyelids (:~~ (just went with that word, have no idea what it means)
Intimate, funny, and philosophical--swoon. What a great compliment. Thank you. (Blinks preternaturally). 🤣
Isn't Nomadland fantastic?! I just love Francis McDormand!
And thank you for commenting on the hard work it has indeed taken to embrace freedom on my own terms, on various levels. It's true. It's certainly been hard won and is a work in progress.
it is and thanks to you paid special attention to Bob...Frances was so amazing in Olive Kittredge (omg and Bill Murray) and i had to see it after the book which reminded me of authentic working class protaganists of the sort Andre Dubus Sr. used to write about...that said Nomadland loomed as huge gap in my experience 😵
Bob is an absolute character and good good human in real life. I only interacted with him very briefly, and it was clear he cares deeply and is just super real.
So glad we pointed you to Nomadland.
And now you’ve pointed me to Olive Kittredge. So thank you.
dont forget Dubus too 😉
we old people carry a wealth of "likes" around....like knapsacks of miniature treasures 🤣
Delightful!!
“Growing toward the light on her own terms.” That’s such a beautiful way to say it. (I reply with, yes, PRETERNATURALLY blinking eyelids.) 😂 My husband and I were literally JUST talking about my blinky-ness yesterday! I don’t know why I do it!
Right?! I love that phrase "growing toward the light on her own terms." To us all doing that more fully and clearly. Beautifully worded. Thank you, Appleton.
You too, Kim?! Hahah. To our preternatural blinking. ;)
shy? 🤣
Holly and Kimberly, you were my breakfast friends today, turning cereal and soggy blueberries into a bowlful of hope, resilience and generosity. Thank you for the blessing.
I’ll eat a bowlful of hope, resilience and generosity (topped with blueberries) any day! Thank you Rona.🙏
Thank you for joining us, my friend!
To our one day sharing breakfast in person!
Thanks you so much Holly and Kimberly, I really enjoyed this. I relate to so much that you are speaking to. Trying to move away and release myself from the mental constraints of society. I really understand actively escaping expectations and being always open to new ideas (as long as they are about a kinder, better world somehow) and being curious.
And I totally love the way you weave themes together in your essays, Holly. Such a pleasure to see you both and thank you so much for an amazing interview with a rich and fascinating person, Kimberly.
Thank you, Jonathan! I truly enjoyed this experience. You know. You had a wonderful interview with Kimberly too. Isn't she amazing and wise and such an attentive reader and listener and curious soul?
To us all releasing ourselves in our own times and our own ways to whatever constraints are not serving us well. And to a kinder, better world and more curiosity.
I'm grateful to have connected with both of you kind, wonderfully evolving people.
She is! Listening and paying attention and caring are rare commodities in this race toward madness, and Kimberly does all of it. A real pleasure to fall into the orbit really.
I really enjoyed your whole interview, Holly. It's such a relief I think, when people forge their own path and wander off from the numbery of the usual. It was a pleasure to see and to read your writing, so thanks. Great to have connected with you both :)
Can you both please speak with my kitty Nova and tell her your feelings about me? She sleeps on Dave every single night and I’m beginning to get a complex. 😂
“Always open to new ideas (as long as they are about a kinder, better world.)” I love that qualification and filter Jonathan. We are overloaded with information and ideas these days, we have to get very mindful about what’s going in. I’m glad these interviews make the cut!
These interviews for sure make the cut, my friend. So much to learn from the people you platform. Honored to be included.
Of course they make the cut! They are part of a community solution! Now I'm going to reply to Holly so we can agree how wonderful you are :)
Oh please go on. 😂😂😂
🥰
I read and commented on Kimberly's page. Lovely interview. Thx for sharing your stories.
You’re sweet. Holly cross-posted but it still all lands over here as one post so she won’t miss a thing!
🥰🥰🥰